1) Only the votes of members included in the main roster will count towards the final tally
1A) Please BOLD your vote to make it easier for me to see.
2) Voting starts when I create the thread and ends when I close it. All threads will stay open for at least 48 hours or until one candidate has received more than 50% of the possible votes.
3) In the event of a tie at the end of the 48+ hour period, I will announce sudden death and the next vote from a roster member or contributor will break the tie.
4) Anyone who distracts from the topic of the thread or those closely related and/or is seen as a general nuisance by the majority of interested parties on the roster may be removed from the project at any time. There is no appeal process.
5) Don't fucking take this seriously, it's an online list made by anonymous strangers.
The Roster - These people are eligible to join the forum and have their vote counted. Members whose names are in BOLD have already had their top 25 forwards list submitted and counted.
L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234 Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro
bizil
Boston C's
Gotterdammerung
SuperPippen
Droid101
D.J.
Miller for 3
MasterDurant24
Clippersfan86
ThaRegul8r
NugzHeat3
Psileas
Kblaze8855
97 bulls
alexandreben
HylianNightmare
EricForman
Fatal9
Gifted Mind
RanierBeachPoet
Last edited by GOAT on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:20 am; edited 3 times in total
Joined: 24 Oct 2011 Posts: 13 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject:
Hopefully I can re-submit mine as I've tweaked it a bit upon reflection:
1 - Larry Bird
2 - Tim Duncan
3 - Elgin Baylor
4 - Julius Erving
5 - Bob Pettit
6 - John Havlicek
7 - Dirk Nowitzki
8 - Karl Malone
9 - Charles Barkley
10 - Rick Barry
11 - Kevin Garnett
12 - LeBron James
13 - Scottie Pippen
14 - Kevin McHale
15 - Elvin Hayes
16 - Dolph Schayes
17 - Dennis Rodman
18 - Dominique Wilkins
19 - James Worthy
20 - Dave DeBusschere
21 - Paul Pierce
22 - Jerry Lucas
23 - Paul Arizin
24 - Bernard King
25 - Adrian Dantley
Honorable Mention:
Alex English
Billy Cunningham
Dan Issel
Connie Hawkins
Tom Heinsohn
Grant Hill
Chris Mullin
Joe Fulks
Maurice Stokes
Shawn Kemp
Chris Webber
Bob Dandridge
Okay let's do this!
I've made slight changes, if that's okay.
1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. John Havlicek
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. Scottie Pippen
11. Bob Pettit
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Rick Barry
14. Elvin Hayes
15. Kevin McHale
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. James Worthy
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dolph Schayes
23. Paul Arizin
24. Pau Gasol
25. Robert Horry (I'm serious)
(here's my old list, for easy math: Baylor goes up two spots, English and Dantley are replaced with Gasol and Horry)
1. Larry Bird
2. Tim Duncan
3. Julius Erving
4. John Havlicek
5. Karl Malone
6. Charles Barkley
7. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Kevin Garnett
9. LeBron James
10. Scottie Pippen
11. Bob Pettit
12. Rick Barry
13. Elvin Hayes
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Kevin McHale
16. Dennis Rodman
17. Paul Pierce
18. Dominique Wilkins
19. James Worthy
20. Dave DeBusschere
21. Billy Cunningham
22. Dolph Schayes
23. Paul Arizin
Lebron and Barkley were close, but I prefer Barkley. Could play the 3-4 and rebound as well as anyone at either position. One of the 3 most doubled players of the past 20-25 years along with Shaq and probably Hakeem. That says a lot to me because it creates for your teammates and shows how unstoppable of a scorer you are. Great passing forward and versatile in the open court as far as handling the ball.
And with Barkley, I truly believe that he had 1 true prime year with a chance to win. IMO, Barkley's prime was from '88-'93, and I think we'd both agree that his '88-'92 Sixer teams weren't beating the Showtime Lakers, Bulls, Badboy Pistons ect.
In '93, he got to the finals and lost to the Bulls and that Suns team was 62-20(61-15 with Barkley) with KJ battling injuries and not playing at his usual level that season and Ceballos not being a factor in the playoffs. A Paxson 3 prevented them from taking Chicago to 7, as well as MJ averaging 41/8/6.
They had a shot in '94 and '95, and had the talent to compete, though lost to the eventual champions again in 7 games. But I don't consider post-'93 Barkley's true prime. He was consistently bothered by injuries after that and in his 30's, he considered retiring after every season.
I also like Barkley's demeanor better, I'd feel better at about going into the playoffs with Barkley over the slightly more talented and more complete Lebron.
After those 2, I don't think any other forwards below had their dominance. Didn't feel good about putting Malone so high, but most of his flaws apply for Garnett and I will give Malone credit for truly freakish longevity. Nowitzki's title and years of contending in the playoffs and big playoff runs as well as being one of the best offensive players in recent years makes me feel ok about him up there.
Dirk still wasn't quite as complete as KG, and I thought KG was better during most of the time that their primes overlapped, and KG also won a title, albeit with more help than Dirk, but like Barkley, had most of his prime wasted. 2004 said a lot as well, KG was the best player in the league that year and if not for Cassell's injury, may have won a title back then. Second closest player ever to a unanimous MVP that year.
With Erving, I'm not sure, he could be ahead of Dirk, but Dirk's recent playoff run and '06 run impress me more than anything Erving did. He seems more unstoppable offensively to me, and I simply can't view ABA stats/accomplishments as equal(and it's tough for me to accept mid 70's pre-merger accomplishments as equal for that matter).
How close would you say a peak Doctor J (73-82) was to LeBron and Barkley's level?
I have him above the other five (Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, LeBron) because I believe his peak was higher than anyone besides LeBron individually and he doesn't have the anti-clutch baggage King James comes with. From '74-'76 Doctor J was the best player in the world according to most who weren't swayed by a heavy anti-ABA bias. That run came while Kareem was in his physical prime. It reminds me of Jordan emerging in the late 80's and early nineties and somehow surpassing Magic and Bird who seemed on their own level.
How close would you say a peak Doctor J (73-82) was to LeBron and Barkley's level?
Pardon the interjection:
I put Dr. J above both Barkley & LeBron. He wasn't as fundamentally sound as Oscar or as pure a shooter as Jordan, but he was one of the greatest ever -- long career, success in both leagues, and flourished in the golden age of small forwards.
Barkley was not a consistent winner, and his lack of work ethics prevented him from being the best he could be. He was my favorite player in the 90s, after Hakeem and Clyde Drexler.
LBJ is a narcissistic man-child of many insecurities, despite having the most talented, physical gifts of anyone since Wilt Chamberlain. Heck. He's Wilt Chamberlain minus a few inches.
Well, first, I'll start off with a comparison between prime Lebron and prime Dr. J, it's easier considering they're both small forwards.
Scoring- Dr. J had the bank shot from about 15 foot up, pretty good in the post(better than Lebron in that regard) and of course, his strength was attacking the basket, particularly in transition where he was unstoppable. But Lebron is also unstoppable going to the basket and when he's out in transition, but he's also a better ball handler(maybe more due to era), has become a better outside shooter(Lebron's jumper hasn't been an issue for me in at least 3 years) and as a result, a more dominant scorer in general.
Passing/playmaking- From what I've seen, Dr. J is a better passer than he's given credit for, but Lebron is in a different class. Lebron may be the second best passing/playmaking forward or non-PG ever behind Larry Bird, imo. I hold this aspect of his game in extremely high regard. And it's just something he had naturally. Even in his second season, he finished 3rd in a players poll about the best passers in the NBA behind only Nash and Kidd.
Rebounding- This happens to be the area where Doc is better and the most overrated aspect of Lebron's game.
Defense- This goes to Lebron, imo. I've heard various accounts regaridng Dr. J's defense, and I'd rate him as pretty average for a star from what I've seen. Lebron on the otherhand has really improved the last 3 seasons, and particularly last season was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. His team defense has become excellent and he's improved his man to man defense as well and I'd rate him as above average in that aspect, while Dr. J's man to man defense was average at best, imo.
So as you can see, I think that Lebron is clearly the better player.
Regarding Barkley vs Dr. J, well, Barkley was considerably more dominant as a scorer. As I said, since Barkley entered the league, only Shaq and Hakeem rival him as the most doubled player, imo. And while i did say that Dr. J was an underrated passer, I think Barkley created even more for his teammates with his passing ability and all of the doubles/triples he drew. Obviously, Barkley's rebounding made a huge impact as well. His defense is often brought up as a negative, and I agree. Barkley was a capable defensive player when he tried and would make highlight reel plays regularly, but he didn't give effort consistently at that end, particularly when it came to solid, fundamental defense. And that is a negative at the PF position(though he wasn't always playing PF).
But yeah, I consider there to be a clear gap between Barkley's prime/peak dominance and Dr. J's.
That's a valid point about how good Dr. J was considered from '74-'76, but look at Barkley. In '90, he got more first place MVP votes than prime Magic(who was pretty much as good as ever) and prime/peak Jordan. Both of whom were on teams with more wins, so it's not really a case of a guy getting more MVP support because of his team.
Then once again in '93, he actually wins the award over prime/peak Hakeem and prime Jordan.
And I personally don't use MVP votes or whatever to form my opinions with players I've seen more than enough of myself such as Barkley, but MVP voting wasn't nearly as fucked up back then, and to be considered that good during Jordan, Magic and Hakeem's prime is telling.
Good reply, I can't really argue with your aspect by aspect breakdown with Doctor J and LeBron but I would submit the following observations
1) Far fewer players had Dr. J's ability in the open court in his era compared to LeBron versus his modern peers. In addition fast breaking is far less common now because of the attention paid by coaches to transition defense. I say this because Doc's transition play really seemed to impact the game more than LeBron's does now even though I concede that both are on their own planet in that regard.
2) Results - Doc Won three ABA MVP's (four total) and Three total titles in his first 12 seasons. Now LeBron has four to go, but through eight years, he's quite a bit behind. So while I can see how someone might think LeBron is the better player, he has not achieved what Doctor J did, not yet anyway.
If you look at Doc's rosters from his Nets days you'll see that guys like Larry Kenon, Brian Taylor and Super John Williamson were his best teammates. Yet he beat teams like the Kentucky Colonels with Artis Gilmore (ABA's best center), Dan Issel (ABA"s best offensive bigman) and Louie Dampier (ABA all-time leader in three's and asts). The Pacers with George McGinnis ('75 co-MVP), Mel Daniels (two-time MVP), Roger Brown (two-time Playoff MVP) and Donnie Freeman and Freddie Lewis, both former 20 per game scorers. And the Utah Stars with Zelmo Beaty, Willie Wise, Ron Boone and Jimmy Jones, all of whom were once all-ABA 1st teamers.
Doc had that intangible ability to get the most out of his teammates while being individually dominant. LeBron and Barkley share that gift, but never turned it into a title let alone two and three more Finals appearances as an alpha and one more title as a sidekick.
I can see the argument for Barkley and Lebron as better players, but not greater players.
Last edited by GOAT on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Yeah, there certainly were a lot more transition opportunities in Dr. J's era(particularly ABA), and as you said, less players who could compare to his talent, which can be either an argument for Dr. J or against him depending on if you're arguing who the better player was regardless of era, or who was better for their era. If I can, while remaining fair, I try to keep both in mind, though that isn't always possible, and it's easier to compare to their own era.
As far as titles, well, that's where it gets tricky. You make a good point about the talent on his teams he beat. But it's still difficult for me to compare Doc's '74 and '76 ABA titles to Lebron who has played with 1 league without a rival 30+ years later. To be consistent, I do view NBA titles during this time with a slight asterisk, but ABA titles a little more, but either way, I think it's different when there are pretty much 2 titles to be won each year instead of one.
As far as the '83 Sixers, well, Doc was the second best player by that point. I'll point out that they were 58-24 and lost in game 6 of the finals the previous season, and right in contention just like that the 2 years before that even without Moses.
But even so, he had the best player of the league in '83, another 2 all-star teammates that season(Toney and Mo Cheeks) and Bobby Jones who had been an all-star the previous 2 seasons in '81 and '82 as well as in '77 and '78 and an ABA all-star in '76 and was then the 6th man of the year in '83 with his minutes reduced.
Jones, Cheeks and Malone were all on the all-defensive 1st team that year, and while Malone making the all-defensive 1st team is a bit odd to me, Cheeks and Jones made several other all-defensive 1st teams and Jones was one of the best and most highly regarded defenders of the era.
So that's a pretty amazing team to play on with pretty much 4 legitimate all-stars, one of whom was the best player in the league. It makes sense that Moses led Philly to an 8-2 record with Dr. J when you consider that.
With Lebron, I look at opportunity.
In 2006, he didn't have a team capable of winning a title. He took the 64 win Pistons to 7 which is about all I could expect.
In '07, he didn't have a team to beat San Antonio. He played very poorly, so I take that into consideration when you lose anyway. But it shows another year where he wasn't going to realistically win a title.
His '08 Cavs team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him, granted, I think his cast was better than that suggests after the midseason trade, and despite Boston being a much better and more talented team. The series went 7 with Lebron having a horrible series through 6 games. So you could argue that if Lebron had played near his usual level, they could've beaten Boston, that combined with the poor performance for most of the series and the loss makes me hold this against him. But even if this team gets by Boston, there was a limit to how far they could go. They weren't winning a title, imo.
His '09 Cavs team greatly overachieved due to the step he took as a player. This remains his finest season. Going 66-16, 39-2 at home and outscoring opponents by 8.9 ppg shocked me. That was a solid cast of defenders, shooters and essentially role players, but you don't expect them to put up a historically great regular season. They swept the first 2 rounds of the playoffs with Lebron dominating with ease. They ran into a better team(despite the records) and while you could point out Lebron's turnovers late in game 4, or his subpar game 6. It seems like nitpicking to me when he averaged 39/8/8, 49 FG% and he hit the gamewinner in game 2. The real problems were Dwight abusing Cleveland's frontline(26/13/3, 65 FG%, 70 FT% is hard to deal with), Lewis causing a huge mismatch for Varejao and Cleveland's 4s, Mike Brown failing to make adjustments and his second option shooting 37%. Despite that, games 1 and 4 were so close that Lewis decided game 1 with a 3 to win and game 4 with a 3 to send it to OT. I'm willing to blame him for the other losses, but in this case, he was so dominant individually and his team let him down. In most cases, the star should shoulder the blame, but everyone needs help.
2010 is a different story. Boston was a better team, imo and Lebron's cast isn't typically as good as most that win titles. But they had a 2-1 lead and Lebron played so far below his usual level the final 3 games that I was shocked. It was hard to explain, and this is a case where you could argue that if Lebron played near his usual level, Cleveland could've advanced.
2011 was the worst so far. Definitely a winnable finals, definitely some legitimate talent and 1 superstar/additional all-star next to him and shockingly quiet series for a player of his caliber. He deserves most, if not all of the criticism he got for it.
That's what makes Lebron tough to judge. I only think he's had 2 years so far where you could have expected him to play better and that result in a title. But he's had other years where he's played below expectations and lost. Even so, last year made me less convinced that Lebron with a little more help/or even a bit better luck vs Orlando or a team that wasn't such a match up problem results in a 2009 title. Prior to that, I thought any of the following and he'd have won. But seeing him disappear and it be so unexplainable in the final 3 games vs Boston in 2010 and the 2011 finals makes him unpredictable.
His 2009 season gives him a top 10 peak of all time, imo, and his talent/level of the play would have him well on his way to top 10 status, except the uncertainty involving his ability to perform in the biggest games.
So I can see why some don't rank him as high as I do. But I think he's so talented and impacts a game in so many ways at a high level regularly that I can't look at that many players and rank them above him.
As far as the last part, well, this is another example of how my rankings will differ from some. "Better" and "greater" are pretty much the same thing to me.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
