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GOAT
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Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 41
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 Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: Top 25 Guards of All-Time |
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Ranking the top 25 Guards in American Pro Basketball History
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Official rules of the project
1) Only the votes of members included in the main roster will count towards the final tally
1A) Please BOLD your vote to make it easier for me to see.
2) Voting starts when I create the thread and ends when I close it. All threads will stay open for at least 48 hours or until one candidate has received more than 50% of the possible votes.
3) In the event of a tie at the end of the 48+ hour period, I will announce sudden death and the next vote from a roster member or contributor will break the tie.
4) Anyone who distracts from the topic of the thread or those closely related and/or is seen as a general nuisance by the majority of interested parties on the roster may be removed from the project at any time. There is no appeal process.
5) Don't fucking take this seriously, it's an online list made by anonymous strangers.
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The Roster
L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro
Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)
ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)
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Top 25
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#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan
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Debate Threads
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#1 Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
#2 Kobe Bryant vs. Magic Johnson
#3 Kobe Bryant vs. Jerry West
#4 Oscar Robertson vs. Jerry West
#5 Isiah Thomas vs. Jerry West
#6 Isiah Thomas vs. Bob Cousy
#7 Dwyane Wade vs. Bob Cousy
#8 Dwyane Wade vs. Walt Frazier
#9 John Stockton vs. Walt Frazier (11-12)
#10 John Stockton vs. Jason Kidd (13-3)
#11 Steve Nash vs. Jason Kidd (9-10)
#12 Steve Nash vs. Clyde Drexler (10-9)
#13 Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton (11-4)
#14 Allen Iverson vs. Gary Payton (3-13)
#15 Allen Iverson vs. George Gervin (9-6)
#16 Hal Greer vs. George Gervin (2-10)
#17 Hal Greer vs. Sam Jones (8-7)
#18 Hal Greer vs. Ray Allen (11-3)
#19 Reggie Miller vs. Ray Allen (4-8 )
#20 Reggie Miller vs. Dennis Johnson (10-4)
#21 Tiny Archibald vs. Dennis Johnson (6-7)
#22 Tiny Archibald vs. Tracy McGrady (7-6)
#23 Earl Monroe vs. Tiny Archibald (0-9)
#24 Earl Monroe vs. Joe Dumars (5-3)
#25 Bill Sharman vs. Joe Dumars (4-5)
Kevin Johnson vs. Bill Sharman (4-6)
Chris Paul vs. Joe Dumars (7-8 ) |
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Götterdämmerung
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Does this mean we start by picking up when you left the project? |
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GOAT
Site Admin
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Götterdämmerung wrote: |
| Does this mean we start by picking up when you left the project? |
I want to start from the beginning of the Forwards project as soon as we get 15-20 people signed up here. |
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WillC
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Top 25 Guards of All-Time |
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| GOAT wrote: |
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Top 25
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#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan
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You know, that's actually a damn good list. We did well. I really like the final order.
The only players who I feel undeservedly missed out were Pete Maravich and Dave Bing. I'd take them over Dumars. But, other than that, it's a great list.
We should keep going and make it a top 30 or something. We need to find a place for Maravich and Bing as well as Lenny Wilkens, Bill Sharman, David Thompson, Sidney Moncrief, etc. |
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Götterdämmerung
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Top 25 Guards of All-Time |
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| WillC wrote: |
| We should keep going and make it a top 30 or something. We need to find a place for Maravich and Bing as well as Lenny Wilkens, Bill Sharman, David Thompson, Sidney Moncrief, etc. |
Add Lou Hudson to that list. He kicked my ass in NBA2k12, even though I was controlling Jerry West & the '71 Lakers. 
Just double-checked: Sweet Lou averaged 25 ppg in '70 at 53% shooting, so no wonder. |
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ShaqAttack3234
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Top 25 Guards of All-Time |
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| WillC wrote: |
| GOAT wrote: |
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Top 25
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#25 Joe Dumars
#24 Earl Monroe
#23 Tracy McGrady
#22 Tiny Archibald
#21 Dennis Johnson
#20 Reggie Miller
#19 Ray Allen
#18 Sam Jones
#17 Hal Greer
#16 George Gervin
#15 Allen Iverson
#14 Gary Payton
#13 Clyde Drexler
#12 Steve Nash
#11 Jason Kidd
#10 John Stockton
#9 Walt Frazier
#8 Dwyane Wade
#7 Bob Cousy
#6 Isiah Thomas
#5 Oscar Robertson
#4 Jerry West
#3 Kobe Bryant
#2 Magic Johnson
#1 Michael Jordan
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You know, that's actually a damn good list. We did well. I really like the final order.
The only players who I feel undeservedly missed out were Pete Maravich and Dave Bing. I'd take them over Dumars. But, other than that, it's a great list.
We should keep going and make it a top 30 or something. We need to find a place for Maravich and Bing as well as Lenny Wilkens, Bill Sharman, David Thompson, Sidney Moncrief, etc. |
I really don't think Maravich had a good case. Considering his flaws as a player and how little team success he had, his NBA career really wasn't significant enough to warrant a spot, imo. Good for highlight reels, but not a guy I want on my team if my goal is to win games.
I'd agree that the other guards you mention could be argued in there, but I think that kevin Johnson is the most notable omission, especially considering his prime overlapped with quite a guards on the list and he was as good or better than several in many of their prime seasons. |
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WillC
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: |
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ShaqAttack3234, what argument could you make for Kevin Johnson over someone like Dave Bing? I'm curious.
Dave Bing has to be the most overlooked player in NBA history. Sure, he made the NBA's Greatest 50 Players list, but most fans don't know or care about him.
He was a scoring machine and a real fan favourite in Detroit.
His two All-NBA 1st Team selections gives him the edge over Dumars, Monroe, Johnson, Miller, Allen, Jones and Greer, although I appreciate they might be better than him in other areas (e.g. team success). |
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Toizumi
Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Top 25 Guards of All-Time |
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| WillC wrote: |
You know, that's actually a damn good list. We did well. I really like the final order.
The only players who I feel undeservedly missed out were Pete Maravich and Dave Bing. I'd take them over Dumars. But, other than that, it's a great list.
We should keep going and make it a top 30 or something. We need to find a place for Maravich and Bing as well as Lenny Wilkens, Bill Sharman, David Thompson, Sidney Moncrief, etc. |
I like the idea of extending the list to 30 or more. There are some great guards not on the list.
On ISH I made several posts about Bill Sharman.. and I just can't let it go. Of course, he played way before my day, but judging by his resume, stats and accomplishments, I feel that he really should have made the list. Especially considering Sam Jones made #18. I wrote the following on ISH
| Quote: |
I'm surprised Bill Sharman hasn't made a lot of lists in this thread. He played way before my day and it's hard to find good footage of him, however (checks NBA reference..), in 11 seasons, he made 8 ASG (1 ASG MVP), 7 All NBA teams (4 first) and won 4 titles.
Yes, he played on great teams, with Cousy, Russell, Heinsohn.. but he led 2 of those championship teams in scoring. If Sam Jones makes a lot of lists, why not Sharman. Yes, Sam Jones won 6 more rings and was a big part of those championship winning teams, but on those first 4 championship teams, Sharman played a bigger role than Jones (eventhough Jones took over the starting job in Sharman last year). It wasnt untill Sharman was out of the league that Jones took over as one of the top scorers (increase in minutes) for the C's. Pretty close between those two in my opinion. If Sam Jones makes most lists and is top 20 in some of these lists, than Sharman can't drop out of the top 25 IMO. |
Sharman lost the voting against Dumars in the first round. I wonder if anybody can make a legit case for Sam Jones being ranked 8 spots above Sharman though..
Again, they played way before my day, but I'm going by what I've read about these players, their stats and the little footage I've seen.[/quote] |
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WillC
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I completely agree.
Dumars tends to be overlooked and, therefore, underrated. However, in our Top 25 Guards rankings, it's the opposite. I really don't feel like he had a better career than Bill Sharman.
I guess his championship success could justify him being ahead of Maravich, Bing, etc. But not Sharman. |
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ShaqAttack3234
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| WillC wrote: |
ShaqAttack3234, what argument could you make for Kevin Johnson over someone like Dave Bing? I'm curious.
Dave Bing has to be the most overlooked player in NBA history. Sure, he made the NBA's Greatest 50 Players list, but most fans don't know or care about him.
He was a scoring machine and a real fan favourite in Detroit.
His two All-NBA 1st Team selections gives him the edge over Dumars, Monroe, Johnson, Miller, Allen, Jones and Greer, although I appreciate they might be better than him in other areas (e.g. team success). |
Bing won a total of 1 playoff series and by that point, he was in a reduced role on the Bullets playing 7 mpg during that run, prior to that he appeared in the playoffs 4 times, just 3 with Detroit.
Kevin Johnson had considerably more team success appearing in 2 conference finals as the best player and 3 conference semifinals as the best player as well as the finals in '93 and 2 more semifinals appearances after that.
KJ also had more impressive individual numbers and while he never made an all-nba first team, he made 3 consecutive all-nba second teams from '89-'91 with the first team spots reserved for Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson who were in their prime. The 2 best guards of all time according to this list were in their prime during the time that KJ had his 3 best years. Not many would even have a shot at making first team over prime Jordan and Magic.
His longevity is really no worse than several other guards on the list either. He had some really impressive performances in the playoffs as well. |
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WillC
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Interesting points.
KJ just never struck me as a superstar kind of player. In fact, I always felt he was about the 4th or 5th best PG in the League for most of his career, although, you're right, there was a time when he was arguably the best PG other than Magic Johnson. |
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GOAT
Site Admin
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: Honorable Mention and My list |
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I had an idea to have everyone vote for up to five players they feel got slighted. Any player who receives three or more votes makes the honorable mention list. Had I finished the project on ISH, we'd have done this.
Anyway, I was very pleased with the results and it's pretty similar to my list. Here is how I rank the best 52 guards all-time as of this moment.
1. Jeffrey
2. Buck
3. Bean
4. Logo
5. O
6. Zeke
7. Clyde
8. Cooz
9. Flash
10. Stock
11. Kidd
12. Glide
13. Nash
14. Glove
15. Answer
16. Ice
17. Greer
18. Sam Jones
19. DJ
20. Joe D
21. Tiny
22. Harrisburg Houdini
23. Sharman
24. Reggie
25. Jesus Shuttlesworth
26. Squid
27. T-MAC
28. Pistol
29. KJ
30. Pearl
31. Mayor Bing
32. Lenny Wilkens
33. Westphal
34. David Thompson
35. JoJo White
36. Slater Martin
37. Gail Goodrich
38. Mr. Big Shot
39. Killer Crossover
40. Gus Williams
41. Tony Parker
42. Manu
43. Max Zaslofsky
44. Bobby Wanzer
45. Paul Seymour
46. Tom Gola
47. Penny
48. CP3
49. D-Rose
50. Mitch Richmond
51. Mark Price
52. Mo Cheeks |
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WillC
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
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I like the idea of voting for our 5 next best guards, i.e. those that just missed out.
My five would be as follows:
26 - Bill Sharman
27 - Pete Maravich
28 - Dave Bing
29 - Bob Davies
30 - Kevin Johnson
Narrowly missing the cut: David Thompson, Lenny Wilkens, Sidney Moncrief, Chris Paul, Gail Goodrich. |
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Götterdämmerung
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GOAT, i'd rank Ginobili over Parker. He's the Spurs closer (or has been) for the past 6 years. Injuries has kept him from consistent play and sixth man role has reduced his minutes. |
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Götterdämmerung
Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| GOAT wrote: |
| Götterdämmerung wrote: |
| Does this mean we start by picking up when you left the project? |
I want to start from the beginning of the Forwards project as soon as we get 15-20 people signed up here. |
I believe that announcement just about killed the 25 top forwards project at ISH.  |
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